Liverpool - the New Chelsea?
Tom and George, have finally bought Liverpool Football Club, but what would it mean to the club itself and its fans?
Liverpool fans, perhaps with a touch of jealousy, have derided Chelsea’s recent achievements suggesting that they have merely “bought the title” with Roman’s riches. They say the club has no history or no honour because they went out and bought their success.
But now it appears that Liverpool will suddenly have access to funds, reported up to £150m, that should enable them to compete with the Chelseas of this world. The exact figure remains, quite rightly, confidential with the new owners playing their cards close to their chests; there’s no point in telling potential sellers how much you have in the kitty!
So what will those Liverpool fans who have lambasted Chelsea for buying the league do now? They who said “You can buy the League, but you can’t buy our history”? Will they stick to their principles and turn their backs on their club? Will they shun any future achievement because it was bought rather than earned? Will future trophies still count?
I’m sure that some Liverpool fans will point to their history and say that they are just building on their tradition, but to do so ignores the fact that Chelsea have a tradition just as long as (although less successful than) that of Liverpool’s. And all those Liverpool fans who count their history in terms of trophies won, are conveniently ignoring the many years Liverpool had in the wilderness.
So whatever excuses the Liverpool fans come out with for welcoming the new transfer kitty, it will still make their previous rants against Chelsea look like sour grapes, …and if they still fail to win the Premiership even with the transfer windfall then perhaps they’ll finally agree that regardless of how much your squad is worth on paper, you still have to earn the title of League Champions.
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72 opinions for Liverpool - the New Chelsea?
Rob
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:29 am
Your article pre-supposes that the most deluded fans in the world (TM) are capable of rational thought.
LumpHead-Lampard
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:34 am
SHUT UP!!! I’M AN EVERTON FAN WITH A “SMALL” PENIS PROBLEM.
magnumopus
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:38 am
Here’s more of the stupid pundit nonsense.
True it looks like Pool has money to spend but what I heard the owners say is that what is wanted by Parry would be looked at and then they would decide what to do. Never heard a blank check policy was issued. Can we expect money to be spent? Yes, indeed, they bought to win!
True, once one team has mega cash to spend and does, that will put all the others to test. This summer should tell just how fast and how much Pool are willing to spend to try to catch up.
darren
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:44 am
i dont think any genuine liverpool red fan had any problem with chelsea having money and becoming another major power in the game, but it was in fact the way they went about everything. Shady meetings to poach cole from arsenal, paying off man u, tottenham and leeds to stop them going to the FA about the conduct of transfer negotiations. Without the dirty side to chelsea, they would have been accepted a lot easier
DannyFS
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:44 am
To see how balanced the opinion on THIS site is, you only have to have a quick look at the articles on the right…
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:45 am
Chelsea have very little history. One league title prior to the Russian bzillions says it all. Even clubs like Preston had won more championships. Chelsea have won double the number of league titles in the last 2 years than they had in their history. A very poor article Im afraid.
Emohawk
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:46 am
I’d like to think you can spot the difference between a club that has billions to spend as opposed to a club that has millions to spend. I’d also like to think you would have noticed most of the money is going on a new stadium.
I’d also like to think that you have noticed Liverpool winning a few trophies in the last 6 years - but that would have stopped you ranting, wouldn’t it?
Ray
Feb 7, 2007 at 10:50 am
What do you expect Liverpool to do? Say no thanks to the greatest deal ever because we want to win the league without substancial economic input? We dominated the league and europe when money wasnt a big factor and now that money is a factor we will dominate it again, we cant live in the dark ages time moves on and so is our great club
danrus
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:01 am
There are significant difference between Liverpool & Chelsea:
Chelsea got the glory because of the money
Liverpool got the money because of their glory
But there are other teams out there, like Man Ham or Everington with similar reputations, except the 5 Euros and 18 Leagues of course.
Rich
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:07 am
Ray,
I think Sack the Juggler’s point is not that he wouldn’t expect Liverpool to take the deal, no-one in their right mind would if the had serious aspirations for their team.
It’s more that the constant whinging about ‘Chelsea have bought the league’, the chants of “U.S.A.” in games against Manchester United, now just make you look petty and jealous.
Are the fans that hurled out abuse about much the same thing going to swallow their pride and continue to follow the American People’s Club?
RolandG
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:11 am
No disrespect for Chelsea winning the league in 2 consecutive seasons. The Premiership gets harder to win each year. There was never any jealousy towards Chelsea in any regard only envy at the money they had availbale.
My only problem with Chelsea as a Liverpool fan, is the way they have conducted themselves in the market. throwing money at everything to make it go away ie. the tapping up of players, paying off of clubs to escape punishment.
As Champions, there are certain standards of grace, dignity and decorum that you are expected to uphold. If Chelsea displayed any of these characteristics, they would get respect much like their team with Vialli, Zola and Gullit did.
Isn’t it ironic that Chelsea fans are now saying that Liverpool sold out. While their ignorance is astounding, their fear is very real.
For all that is said about the Liverpool take over, its business as usual and not of the shady kind. Our traditions will be left intact and we must move on to bigger and better things in the name of progress.
John
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:11 am
I sincerely wish Mr Moores didn’t need to sell our club, but in todays climate he had no choice. Everybody is now seeking investment to just ’stay in the race’, not win it! If you’re in a fist fight, and your opponent starts using a baseball bat, then you need a bat too. Mr Moores went searching for investment to compete evenly with Man U & Chelsea, who started this financial arms race. You cannot blame Liverpool for responding to a situation that was already in place.
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:13 am
I wonder if the new owners will keep the Liverpool fans entertained when they play in Europe. They have a history of being easily distracted and getting up to “mischief”…..
bob
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:14 am
I dont think Rafa will spend money as Mourino has done. Rafa will surely do as Sir Alex likes to do. How rich a team is, the money has to be spent wisely.
Money dont guarantee success.When u see Chevchenko and S.W.Phillips performance as regards to their price.
Onion
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:23 am
I agree with RolandG - it is the way Chelski conduct themselves. The tapping up, the behaviour when they lose etc. I had a theory it was deliberate to try to get them back page coverage. Things have improved this season but this could be as they are not top of the league and maybe are not keen to draw this to the attention of people.
I think another stark difference is that the new owners came out and faced the press. This is something that didn’t happen with Utd or Chelsea (even a statement would have done from Roman).
The fact is Liverpool have had to do this to compete. It levels the playing field somewhat. I’ve no doubt that many fans will feel uncomfortable but surely if Liverpool now go on to win the title - the argument of buying it is redundant the playing field is level as far as the Utd, Pool and chelsea are concerned?
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:34 am
LM - there you go again measuring a clubs history in terms of trophies won, so before the 70’s Liverpool had no history? Of course they did, stop falling into this trap of blindly supporting a club because you can recite the number of cups they’ve won.
Yes, Preston has a history, so does Cheslea and so does Kettering, just because Liverpool has been more successful over the years it doesn’t mean that other clubs don’t have a history, and it doesn’t mean Liverpool didn’t have a history when they haven’t been successful.
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 11:58 am
Sack the Juggler. Yes Chelsea had a history but not a very successful one. To be honest, I dont even know why Im defending the takeover. Man United have been buying 30m players for years, Chelsea have recently been doing it and now Liverpool can do it. We are now on a level playing field. Arsenal will be taken over eventually and people will slate them but they will have to eventually to be able to compete. Arsenal have spent more wisely than any of the other big 4 but can they win titles again without major investment? I personally dont think so.
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:34 pm
LM:”Arsenal will be taken over eventually and people will slate them but they will have to eventually to be able to compete. Arsenal have spent more wisely than any of the other big 4 but can they win titles again without major investment? I personally dont think so”
Arsenal are rebuilding slowly and bringing players through. Is it also no coincidence that they play the most patient and attractive football? Its a bit of a metaphor for the whole club really.
Having seen them on Saturday theres desparation both off and on the pitch as far as Liverpool are concerned.
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:38 pm
MOYESEYSIDE - yeah desperation because we drew at home after winning 24 out of 28 home games in the league and drawing the other 4…..smacks of desperation that doesnt it…HAHA Some people really make me laugh when talking football!
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Id say one trophy since 1987 smacks of desperation personally!
CHELSEA BLUE
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:44 pm
As far as chelsea not having any history is a total load of horse shit. Its sad that to remember your clubs history you have to count trophies you bunch of glory hunters. Most of you have probably not even been to the old EVERTON stadium arssfield. We have been there just as long as you lot and we have built our OWN stadium to build our future on. I personally would rather be writing history than living in it you bunch of saps. As far as you know being able to compeate with the likes of chelsea and man u, it will take more than the few quide Mr and Mrs Gillette got in the post office savings account. And how will all those unemployed season ticket holders afford the new ticket prices? You cant sing you songs any more, youve sold you history, you are the weakest link, GOOD BYE!
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:46 pm
“yeah desperation because we drew at home after winning 24 out of 28 home games in the league and drawing the other 4…..smacks of desperation that doesnt it…HAHA Some people really make me laugh when talking football! ”
Trust you to hark back to your past record! I wonder if the new owners can add 2 things to their to do list
1) Lots of activities for travelling Liverpool fans in Europe (preferably away from any loose slabs)
2) Break from the past.
Rich
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:49 pm
LM, presumably your remark in Message 20 makes over 90% of the football teams, professional and amateur, desperate?
Football isn’t just solely about trophies won. Sure, that’s the icing on the cake, but if everyone took your approach no-one would actually bother would they!
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Hark back to our past record? Our CURRENT undefeated run at home of about 29 league games?!! So the present time is now the past? You Evertonians really are more bitter than I thought!!!!!
EVERTON - JUST A SMALL CLUB CLUB FROM KIRKBY
hahahaha!
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Rich, Im just having a laugh at an Evertonians expense. One who says a CURRENT unbeaten record is in the PAST and one who said Liverpool are desperate because they drewa game…..hilarious
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:56 pm
LM - yes you almost right, although 1987 Everton also won a League Championship - think you won your last one around then too?
But to be honest you have hit the nail on the head, most Liverpool fans support their club because of the glory by association it has given them over the years, other fans just support their club mainly because its their local club.
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Calm down LM. You’re only as good as your last game.
Us - resolute
You- Short of ideas.
Maybe Mr Gillet can buy you a few new ideas?
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Since 1987 we have won:
2 League championships
3 FA Cups
3 League Cups
1 UEFA Cup
1 Champions League
Yeah, I can see the similarities between that and one FA Cup.
Can people argue with facts and not silly little digs on here please
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I am calm Moyesyside but at least come up with valid points. Saying a current unbeaten run of 29 games is in the past does not make sense, saying you are only as good as your last game is ridiculous.
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:02 pm
LM, like I said, Liverpool fans = glory “buy” association… FACT
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:02 pm
“Can people argue with facts and not silly little digs on here please”
Ok. No league title for 17 years.
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:05 pm
” am calm Moyesyside but at least come up with valid points. Saying a current unbeaten run of 29 games is in the past does not make sense, saying you are only as good as your last game is ridiculous”
Thats home games remember. Please clarify it. Mind you best not to mention the old away record.
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Moyesyside - at last a valid point! Considering the cash we have spent we should have at least got a lot closer during that time. However, we have at least won 2 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, a UEFA Cup and a Champions League in the past 6 years! A fluky champions league you will say….well its a fluky champions league more than Everton, Arsenal or Chelsea have ever won!
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:07 pm
The away record that only 4 teams in the premiership can better do you mean? Everton is not one of those either by the way…..
http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/football/fapremiership/standing/away_standing.html
Rich
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:10 pm
The desperate remark which you have not yet acknowledged (I am sure it is on your list) was also made more in reference to Rafa’s ‘poor choice of words’, shall we say, over the weekend. Let’s face it, it was as disrespectful as they come.
I suspect though by your ability to ream off stats though you do consider 80% of the teams in the Premiership as being ’small’ and every team from thereon down the leagues.
How do you consider Nottingham Forest these days? Are they a big club with a poor team by their previous high standards, or do competitions won outside of a defined period not count for anything? How about Villa as well?
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Fulham and Villa have lost less games than you have away from home. As have we.
Flukey CL win eh? Well admitted that man.
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:26 pm
It doesnt matter how many games you lose….its points that count in a league table last time I looked Moyesyside. Again, a poor argument.
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Rich, I think Rafas comments were disrepectful to be honest. He has got the top 4 in mind because he hasnt been here to see what clubs like Forest and Everton achieved in the 70s and 80s. A lot of Liverpool fans were not happy with the comment but the reaction from the bitters has been worth it…one guy was nearly crying on Radio Merseyside at the weekend because what Rafa had said :-)
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:40 pm
“It doesnt matter how many games you lose….its points that count in a league table last time I looked Moyesyside. Again, a poor argument. ”
surely though if you hadnt lost so many then you’d be competing for the title rather than fighting for 3rd/4th spot.
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I can see the flaw in Rafa’s plan now. He failed to make the connection between not winning games and not getting points for it……
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Moyesy, you said everton, fulham and villa had lost less away. Im saying it means nothing as we have still won more points away from home than those 3 clubs! Points are how the league table is calculated, not games lost
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:12 pm
you dont want to talk about your away record. Its ok I understand, i’ll leave it at that…
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I know, because its so bad…..5th worst in the Premiership….better than Evertons….although that means nothing really
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:33 pm
By the way Moyesy, you said you are only as good as your last game. Well, we won our last away game so does that mean we are great away? Deary me Moyesy, you really do talk some rubbish.
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:35 pm
LM yes Everton’s away record is worse than yours - but as you say it means nothing - we wont win the Premiership either …
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Let it go son, let it go….
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Yes sack but next year we will be in the champions league. Y’know, that competition you nearly got into but lost home and away in the qualifiers and then brought a video out called CHAMPIONS LEAGUE - WERE HAVING A LAUGH.
Irony….you certainly were having a laugh!
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:45 pm
LM - irony is Liverpool who haven’t been Champions for 20 years, being allowed in the competition….
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:51 pm
I love biterness
:-)
MOYESYSIDE
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:53 pm
“I love biterness”
I imagine it keeps you going…..
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 2:56 pm
It does.
Proves just how jelous Everton fans are of Liverpool.
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:03 pm
LM - whereas Liverpool are bitterly jealous of Everton, Chelsea and Man U… what goes around…
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Bitterly jelous of Everton
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Of what?
Their shed of a ground?
Their fantastic support?
Their wonderful European history? (ZERO european cups)
Their honours list (more than half the size of Liverpools)
Granted, we have been enviuos of Chelsea and Man Utd recently but Everton? You really are deluded!
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:11 pm
LM - so you were happy being in our shadow for all those years?
Fair play for confessing that you wish you were more like Chelsea though.
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Sack, yes Everton had their days and they may well do again, youre certainly moving in the right direction as a club from the low points of the 90’s.
I also think Liverpool will have their day again. United went 26 years without winning the title and then look what happenned. Everything goes in cycles.
Rich
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:34 pm
If your idea of dignity for a club is trouble abroad resulting in death then you can keep it.
Also there is no dignity in moaning to FIFA when you know the rules at the begining of the season, finish 5th but win the champions cup, but still want to get into next year chanpions league. Also the whole argentine player transfer business hardly gives Liverpool any moral high ground to stand on.
No team in England can claim to have dignity, everyone is looking out for themselves. Thats the way it has been and even more so now
LM
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Rich, Im more concerned about being the most successful club in the country than having any moral high ground to stand on.
18 League Titles
5 European Cups
Football clubs exist to win trophies and we have won more than anyone in the country.
Liverpool uuteen omistukseen? - Page 2 - Paitsio.com :: Keskustelufoorumi
Feb 7, 2007 at 3:52 pm
[…] Myyty eniten tarjoavalle Aikamoista Jeesustelua pojat. Muistan hyvin kun Chelsea vaihtoi omistajaa, niin poolin pojat oli etunenss huutelemassa kuinka se tekee huonoo fudikselle. Mites nyt suu pannaan? Kaikkien mielest onki ihan jees et stadionin uudeks ninmeks tulee microsoft-stadion ja pelaajatrafiikki alkaa, ku Benis saa 120 miljoonaa puntaa pelaajakauppoihin. Liverpool on MYYTY ja sen avulla alkaa armoton rahankiskonta faneilta etc. Luuleeko joku ett noi Jenkit osti seuran siin mieless ett se tuottaa tappiota? Chelsean kohdalla kyse oli Romanin rakkaus itse kuningaspeliin, eik tavoitteena ollut pelkk armoton ja kylm rahanteko. Urheilu on tmn kaupan kautta mennyt lopullisesti pelkksi bisnekseksi. Niinkuin ManU Glazerin kynsiss. T on surullista. World Cup and Football news from a football freak The Footie - World Cup News Liverpool - the New Chelsea? Lukekaas tuolta, jos kantti kest: Liverpool Americans’ dream would have been a nightmare for Shankly-Sport-Football-Premiership-Liverpool-TimesOnline Shankly kntyy haudassaan! Perinteet kaatopaikalle, toisin kuin Abramovich joka otti takaisin vanhan logon ja elvytti Batesin syvyttmt perinteet. […]
Zob
Feb 7, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Let’s face it, no-one’s gonna catch Chelski without spending like they do. They’ve got an awesome team and deserve the last two titles, money or no money - much as I hate to say it.
And as for ‘history’, as sack the juggler has pointed out - Kettering have just as long a history, and teams like Sheffield FC have a lot longer history than Liverpool or Chelsea. Every team has their highs and their lows and whatever league they play in their fans feel it just as much. In fact probably more so in the lower leagues where you’re more likely to get a proper following of LOCAL fans who are informed about other levels of the game than just England, the prem top six and a couple of European teams…
Having said all that I’d love to see Liverpool stitch Chelsea next year :)
Sack the Juggler
Feb 7, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Garage Olimpo (message 58) - help me out here, give me a clue about the language, its not greek, russian, dutch or swedish - is it Finnish?
Rich
Feb 7, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Thats all very well and I’m not critcising anything you’ve said. Its more to do with Liverpool fans who feel that there club has far greater morals and dignity when evidence suggests that they are just as underhand and ruthless as many other clubs which have reached the top through money and stepping on the smaller clubs at one point or another.
Money
Chelsea have Russian Billions
Liverpool has Littlewoods Pools Money and now Yank money
Players
Chelsea have tapped up Ashley Cole
Liverpool have tapped up Christian Ziegler
Fans
In past Chelsea have has racist and violent element
In past Liverpool have had violent element which contributed to 2 tradegies.
etc, etc …
Mark Hobbs
Feb 8, 2007 at 11:14 am
Everton fans obsessing with Liverpool again.
Let it go.
STJ - Can’t you just write about Everton and stop talking about Liverpool? You’re deluding yourself if you think we still believe that you are raising debates on current issues in the footballing world.
You’re just using any excuse to get your hatred and jealousy of Liverpool off your chest and it’s pathetic.
Sack the Juggler
Feb 8, 2007 at 11:21 am
Mark - crawl back into your hole mate, if you think that Liverpool being taken over by the Septics is not a current issue for debate then you are the one that is deluded…
Zob
Feb 8, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Nice one Rich - you have summarized top-flight football perfectly:
Every team needs money so they can compete, and all are run like businesses nowadays. You just can’t win titles by only bringing players through etc, as quality youngsters cost cash as do academies.
No-one can really stop tapping-up, or dodgy transfers etc, especially when top-players can essentially demand to leave.
Every team has its share of racist/violent/boo-boy idiots.
Really, there is no moral high-ground in football. None of the big teams are guilt-free - and of course I include my own team Sheffield Wednesday in that statement. In fact it’s the big teams that are pushing up the ticket prices, colluding with agents, forming ever-smaller and more exclusive leagues (like the prem) and so getting a bigger slice of the pie, to the detriment of smaller clubs and grass-roots.
And Wednesday are a big team before anyone makes the obvious comment :) We’re just waiting for the right moment to storm the Premiership, that’s all.
Mark Hobbs
Feb 8, 2007 at 1:26 pm
ok sack the bitter juggler.
keep on deluding yourself.
Sack the Juggler
Feb 8, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Mark - cheers mate ;)
Oh the hypocrisy of it all… «
Feb 10, 2007 at 4:00 am
[…] Nice read: Liverpool - the new Chelsea? […]
Squiddy
Feb 11, 2007 at 1:26 pm
So “no genuine liverpool red fan had any problem with chelsea having money…”. Nice to see the age old hypocrisy is alive and kicking. Shady meetings with clubs? You mean direct negotiations with clubs and agreeing fees for non-playing staff or non-professional players. I think that’s precisely the way it’s supposed to be done actually.
In msg11 Roland says it’s “ironic that Chelsea fans are now saying that Liverpool sold out”. No, it’s ironic that Liverpool fans are saying they /haven’t/ sold out, while they’ve spent years claiming the opposite, forgetting Chelsea prevented Liverpool qualifying for the CL when they had least money of all.
The point is that money can’t buy Leagues or Cups - the taunt used in Abramovich’s first season when nothing was won at all. In the last 2.5 years it’s been said that it can, but it still can’t. Look at West Ham and Villa since their takeovers, losing to Reading and Watford this wek as a prime example. This is the norm.
It’s only the fat controller who’s been squealing week after week about having no money, while hypocritically taunting “small” clubs, especially one who was one of the founder members of the football league and who were the real power in Liverpool before the money of the Moores family came into play. There’s irony.
Charlton Fan
Feb 14, 2007 at 4:32 am
Mr. Juggler, post something new mate. Come on, I need your daily digest of everything footie, you do have everything insider about Liverpool between your fingers, have you heard anything new? Who’s got pissed at the local pub and said how Liverpool are soooooo crap and that they won’t win a piss up at a pub and, they’d move to Real Madrid provided the chance.
Come on, come on, come on, come on….
Scott
Feb 19, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Hypocrites F.C.
Funny, Wallowpool had won nothing until a certain cash injection 40 years ago.
Their self pitying, self delusional act is getting annoying and the sooner they admit they killed 39 the better.
Don’t worry lads, perhaps you can create another banner saying how unfair everything is and everyones against your glorious club with it’s rich history of murder, thieving and self pitying.
lfcrule1972
Mar 7, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Nice one Scott - resort to ill-judged slurs to make no point at all. Your lack of intelligence for a real debate is all too apparent.
Anonimus
Mar 21, 2007 at 9:39 am
photo gut
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